Topic

Hey guys as said i keep meaning to pop this topic up and today i was pushed over the edge.... WARNING this thread will probebly be very engine-geeky lol

Project alexander is trundling along now and although my eventual engine conversion is a good 18 months off i'm starting to budget/ and ask as many questions as possible

The plan has always been a V-TEC K20a engine conversion using a 200bhp honda civic 2.0l engine such as the engine in Figos TF (previously Golden Wheels) (honda do a 2.2l K20a engine from the prelude R which runs 220ish bhp as standard but there like rocking horse poo)

i believe Figo is currently running one of two maps... the most powerful is 244 bhp (correct me if im wrong mate i cba looking lol thats off the top of my head)

seen as though im lazy and still haven't joined the Type R forums to discuss tuning this engine im doing a little guesswork... but given Gereddy do a bolt on turbo kit and figo has 240+bhp with no forced induction and no NOS im guessing this engine is capable of 300bhp (which is my target figure)

id plan to reach the magic 300bhp with no more than a 25 shot of NOS... in other words i want a minimum of 275bhp with no NOS at all.... this is alot but lets face it given the time, money and work involved i rekon aiming for just under twice what the most powerful TF was built with (158bhp) is reasonable


anyway the advantages of the V-TEC are: 1. its reliable as hell 2. the hard work is done (engine mounts and driveshafts both of which figo has confirmed he can make the designes for avaliable)

however the drawback is cost... the engine alone will cost upwards of £2000.00 before tuning it and fitting it

so whats the alternative you ask? well i can see two... one is the Mazda/Ford 2.2l Duratec engine from a Mondao which can be tuned to around 280bhp without turboing and NOS... however although the engine is cheap to buy massively uprated internals will be needed pushing the cost of such an engine to around £3500.00

the other i discovered on .orgs ZR section and is this

http://reyland.co.uk/Details.asp?ProductID=150

Its an Audi 20v 1.8T engine which has been around for ever and is a dam good motor... best represented in the 225bhp Audi TT... i had an A4 with one of these engines in and it felt like a 2.8 never mind 1.8

anyway what really interests me is this company which have built ZRs with this engine rekon it can be mated to a PG1 gearbox which negated the difficult work of matching up driveshafts... in effect all you have to do its plonk it on the rear subframe mated up with the gearbox and your away (obv it will be a BIT more involved but still)

also these engines cost around £1000, so half as much as a V-TEC and they are already turbo'd so as long as i could cool the dam thing i could slap on a T14/16 turbo and run upwards of 300bhp with no NOS (just horrid turbo lag lol)

what do you rekon? lets get a lively discussion fellow petrol-nerds! and can the PG1 gearbox take 300bhp?! lol

The gearbox limits are torque not BHP dependant. How much will you be producing?
The stock 620Ti at 240Nm gives PG1 boxes a very hard time as it is on the edge of its rated figures, when they fail the shaft bearings, (which are plastic caged) collapse, ruining the oil seals, and lose the oil.
You can uprate them to metal caged items, which are much better. Maybe get a PG1 with the LSD in it too from a Ti etc?
No idea what the driveshafts and hubs will take, remember they are designed for a Metro, not a turbocharged sportscar. I seem to remember that the wheel bearings are on the limit in a standard F/TF too.

Andycolm;8261 wrote: wrote:

The gearbox limits are torque not BHP dependant. How much will you be producing?
The stock 620Ti at 240Nm gives PG1 boxes a very hard time as it is on the edge of its rated figures, when they fail the shaft bearings, (which are plastic caged) collapse, ruining the oil seals, and lose the oil.
You can uprate them to metal caged items, which are much better. Maybe get a PG1 with the LSD in it too from a Ti etc?
No idea what the driveshafts and hubs will take, remember they are designed for a Metro, not a turbocharged sportscar. I seem to remember that the wheel bearings are on the limit in a standard F/TF too.

i didn't think in so many terms (my knowledge of gearbox's stretches to 5 forward... 1 back) lol but i was aware that the gearbox was unlikely to take 300+bhp im guessing the above company extensively rebuild the box

The knowledgable guys on PG1s are Rally_matt, E_T_V and MGJohn (who is the guru) over on the other place and Rovertech. They can advise about driveshaft to gearbox and also bell housing comptability, ie only a PG1 from a K series will fit, the others have different cases.They can rebuild it to whatever spec you need, inc. Torsen LSDs etc. You will need an uprated clutch too, the stock one wont take the sort of tourque you are looking at either.

Don't torque to him about clutches.

http://www.performanceclutch.co.uk/p0/mgf/232879.htm

http://www.performanceclutch.co.uk/p0/mgf/240695.htm

After speaking to them, the uprated clutch cover is more important than the clutch plate itself. Ideally you should uprate both.

CJJ;8270 wrote: wrote:

Don't torque to him about clutches.

for the record i have no idea what CJJ could possibly be hinting at





aye, im not saying the 1.8T engine is how im going to go (i still rekon a V-TEC will be the way forward just probably a little more tuned than Figos (peeing contest much? lol) the V-Tec has the great and only distinction of having been done (in other words being a cash concious student i dont want to spend £5k on an engine trying to get it to work if i know the V-TEC will give me 300bhp and the hard works been done by gerry)

i was just thinking maybe other engines were possible? and has anyone thought of one?

i was thinking maybe a porche boxter engine? its 244 bhp standard (if i recall corectly) and the boxter isnt much better (if any bigger) than a TF and its mid engined so maybe thats possible?

Boxster engines are a flat six and are mounted longways behind the gearbox, there won't be room for it as it will be too wide.
Something 4 cylinders and transverse mounted in the donor car is going to be the best bet.
It depends what you are going to use the car for, track user then a lightweight ally engine like the Honda is good, keep as close to the K series weight as possible so as to not upset the handling.
For road use that isn't so critical, how about a T series turbo from 620 Ti?
Pretty easy to get to 400bhp, certainly cheaper than using a Vtec etc and the box from that will drop onto the existing gearbox mounts.
Cooling is still an issue, but no more than any other turbo engine.

Will keep an eye on this thread but I think I'm going to stick with the K series and go down the turbo route. Been thinking about ditching the 1.8 and sticking the VVC head on a 1.6 and turboing that with a higher RPM limit. No idea if it will work yet but the 1.6 is supposed to be more rev happy due to the 1.8 being a step too far with the rod angles so less likely to fail at higher RPMs.

I have well over a year to research that though so I may well be talking complete rubbish Plus I need to find out if the Emerald can handle the VVC and a turbo together

gotenks1321;8293 wrote: wrote:

Will keep an eye on this thread but I think I'm going to stick with the K series and go down the turbo route. Been thinking about ditching the 1.8 and sticking the VVC head on a 1.6 and turboing that with a higher RPM limit. No idea if it will work yet but the 1.6 is supposed to be more rev happy due to the 1.8 being a step too far with the rod angles so less likely to fail at higher RPMs.

I have well over a year to research that though so I may well be talking complete rubbish Plus I need to find out if the Emerald can handle the VVC and a turbo together

not sure mate but surly a programmable ECU is well... programmable so can handle anything?

as for the boxer engine i knew it was a flat six i just didnt realse it wasn't transverse apologies

and i defiatly plan on keeping the weight down as much as possible... i may not evan use a turbo mind i just depends what it takes to reach 300bhp on the (assuming) V-TEC engine

it wont be a track day car infact it will be everyday use as it is now, but with the planned thrash every now and again and track use (as it is now :hehe: )

as for weight the mazda/ford engine is even lighter (all aluminum) and has the benefit of easier to line up driveshafts but that ease is negated by the fact that figo has done the work for me by giving me the engine mount and driveshaft designs

how are you planning to cool your turbo mate?

wasnt there a f/tf with a ford 2.0 zetec lump in it. Whats the standard BHP on an old focus RS, I imagine that engine tuned would give more torque than the vtec?

Although if you can get the mounts etc for a vtec lump it might be best to fit one of them. I think 300 bhp in a TF for everyday use is gonna be 'interesting'

I do prefer the forced induction route for a daily drive. A supercharger will remove a lot of the heat problems you get with a turbo. Maybe a closed deck 1.4 with a blower and some headwork and cams etc? Could be tasty and reliable too.
To get big power from a NASP Vtec etc you are talking lots of revs and little torque or power till the top of the rev band. Having to be revving the nuts off it to make progress in traffic will get very boring I feel.
Unless you work the box to keep it in the 7k to 9k powerband like on a 2 stroke engine you will be going nowhere fast. Torque wins races
Hmmm.. Diesel transplant anyone?

mgf_matt;8365 wrote: wrote:

wasnt there a f/tf with a ford 2.0 zetec lump in it. Whats the standard BHP on an old focus RS, I imagine that engine tuned would give more torque than the vtec?

Although if you can get the mounts etc for a vtec lump it might be best to fit one of them. I think 300 bhp in a TF for everyday use is gonna be 'interesting'

i realize its alot of bhp without traction control or (in my case) evan ABS! but look at TVRs... they had well in excess of that and i have a mate who's only car is a T350

besides it's only 300 when i plant my foot .... err officer lol


i rekon 280 ish as an engine is more than usuable every day with a 25 shot of progressive NOS when i want to burn off a non turbo 911 or make a boxter look small lol

as said the engine that was in GW and now in Figos TF-R is running two maps of around 220 and 240 bhp... so if i can get another 80 bhp reliably out of a v-tec engine then im very happy