Topic

I think it's the Cumbrian roads!

David Aiketgate wrote: wrote:

Err... one of my rear damper top mounts fractured. With standard dampers fitted...and no rust either.

So you can't blame the Bilsteins for that one

I am still waiting to be told how many MG's with Bilsteins fitted have had this happen

i have seen these a few times.rover dampers cant damage the body work they simply are not strong enough,when people started fitting after market shocks we started seeing these happen,and it would happen a lot.The rear of the car is heavy and the mounts are weak.The hyro lastic pods took most of the stress and the damper took the damping power.
But with stiffer dampers the damper then took all the shock and the hydrolastic almost became redundant.
There where two makes that would do this damage spax and bilstene.they are simply too strong to work on these cars.
In fact within 10,000 miles the rear would be wreaked.The problem is now that the cars are old is the metal has got weaker due to age so the process is is sped up.
We have a number of photos of cars that we have put on here showing the damage.we only fit gaz shocks and these are on a setting that is safe for the car.Many cars suffer from these problem,hence the idea of welding plates on the mount.
We have removed more bilstene shocks then anything else and we simply bin them.We have also found that the bottom bolt can snap using these make as well.At one point rover issued a safety warning and the shock company did respond with a safety notice,but now rover has gone they just sell them.
I have seen myself around 40 cars over the years where the rear mount has failed or the bottom bolt has failed.
You have to understand how the suspension works.when the hydrolastic drops in height,the damper is pressing harder into the mount.and the car then can be found riding on the dampers rather then the pods,most cars have springs and these dont suddenly lose height.
Its not about track days or fast driving,its about haw the car is designed and how it works.
The same thing is one boy racers cars when the lower the springs and put stiffer shocks on,the car is no longer riding on the springs but the shocks.the a differant part of the suspension is doing a differant job.
The hydrolastic is designed to surport the wieght of the car and its contents.the damper thats out the bounce.
fit a stiffer damper and the hydro loses even a small amount of pressure,the damper is now holding up the car.and that is very dangerous,simply because the hydro is fitted to the subframe and the damper is attached to the wing.
bilstenes will go through your mounts regardless how you drive,unless you keep you pods inflated perfectly,and that will mean testing every month.
And to answer jans question about how many bilsteins have damged mgs.drive a car around with a almost solid bit of metal between our wheels and your bodywork instead of a normal damper and it wont take very long,one pot hole and it will be a rear wing damaged

How can the car be riding on the shocks?

The shocks are shorter than the spheres.. Let all the pressure out of the sphere and the shock will fully compress and still have room to compress

The shocker is there to make the ride more controlled

The stresses are increased when the shocker is stiffer... Hence the damage risk increases and the need to strengthen

I've sheared 2x 8.8 bolts on the buggy running standard shocks.. Due mostly to the design.. Single shear

My top arms will all be double shear and run 13.9 bolts

Jan if you don't run them stiff they will be fine

Boy racers cars are mostly coil overs now so still don't see how they are sat on the shockers.. Regardless of ride height..

mgf -reborn wrote: wrote:

i have seen these a few times.rover dampers cant damage the body work they simply are not strong enough,when people started fitting after market shocks we started seeing these happen,and it would happen a lot.The rear of the car is heavy and the mounts are weak.The hyro lastic pods took most of the stress and the damper took the damping power.
But with stiffer dampers the damper then took all the shock and the hydrolastic almost became redundant.
There where two makes that would do this damage spax and bilstene.they are simply too strong to work on these cars.
In fact within 10,000 miles the rear would be wreaked.The problem is now that the cars are old is the metal has got weaker due to age so the process is is sped up.
We have a number of photos of cars that we have put on here showing the damage.we only fit gaz shocks and these are on a setting that is safe for the car.Many cars suffer from these problem,hence the idea of welding plates on the mount.
We have removed more bilstene shocks then anything else and we simply bin them.We have also found that the bottom bolt can snap using these make as well.At one point rover issued a safety warning and the shock company did respond with a safety notice,but now rover has gone they just sell them.
I have seen myself around 40 cars over the years where the rear mount has failed or the bottom bolt has failed.
You have to understand how the suspension works.when the hydrolastic drops in height,the damper is pressing harder into the mount.and the car then can be found riding on the dampers rather then the pods,most cars have springs and these dont suddenly lose height.
Its not about track days or fast driving,its about haw the car is designed and how it works.
The same thing is one boy racers cars when the lower the springs and put stiffer shocks on,the car is no longer riding on the springs but the shocks.the a differant part of the suspension is doing a differant job.
The hydrolastic is designed to surport the wieght of the car and its contents.the damper thats out the bounce.
fit a stiffer damper and the hydro loses even a small amount of pressure,the damper is now holding up the car.and that is very dangerous,simply because the hydro is fitted to the subframe and the damper is attached to the wing.
bilstenes will go through your mounts regardless how you drive,unless you keep you pods inflated perfectly,and that will mean testing every month.
And to answer jans question about how many bilsteins have damged mgs.drive a car around with a almost solid bit of metal between our wheels and your bodywork instead of a normal damper and it wont take very long,one pot hole and it will be a rear wing damaged

So exactly how are Spax different, apart from the adjustment screws rusting, being cheaper and more readily available ?

http://www.apttony.co.uk/MGFquality/MGFquality.html

Qualified and well researched..

As for your comment Daryl about throwing more Bilsteins in the bin etc etc without being personal, quite simply I do not believe you ..

Please provide me with the links for factual documented evidence on your claims as I can find none ..

All four lower shock mounts on an F are SINGLE SHEAR

Here is a guide for those who are interested

http://sector111.blogspot.co.uk/2012/01/single-vs-double-shear-explained.html

It is possible to make the lower mount double shear.. My Triple F will have doube shear lower mounts.. as my Snake Bite Buggy has..

How does a shock absorber work?



Any shock absorber fitted to any car should close to a smaller length than the spring (or sphere) when fully compressed

This ensures that the weight of the vehicle can never be carried on the shocks..

If it did the lower mounts would shear before damage to the body

but with a hard shock and a old worn suspension ie the hydro pod the issue can become more pressing.all to often people buy sports shocks and set them to hard for the car.and if their suspension is set to low then the issue arises.
Allen knows his stuff and can explain it better then me.unless the car is set up correctly with the new items then things can break.
often people decide to alter the car but do allow for all the mods to accomondate the upgrade

This discussion reminds me of another peculiarity of the Suplex system.
The dampers supplied are more or less direct copies of the original Monroe single action damper fitted with the spheres.
Suplex have mated them to a Spring, which should have normal dampers that damp in compression and extension.

The rear dampers are slightly different (they are 30% stiffer than the fronts), but, and it is a big but, they have an internal bump stop to prevent them compressing too much. In fact, as I highlighted to the Suplex engineer, when they were still talking to me, At recommended height the dampers were fully compressed onto this bumpstop! So any compression of the rear spring means that the car is riding on the damper's internal bumpstop.
His reply was that the bumpstop was made of compressible material.

A interesting point is the hydro gas spheres are both the shocks and springs. The additional shocker was added to improve handling. In fact the metro doesn't run shocks at all (barring the gti)

Exactly, and that's why the standard damper is so unusual.
Dampers damp the 'springiness' of a spring suspension, so you don't imitate Tigger and bounce off the road.
Hydragas doesn't have that inherent springiness.

Hence why the F is superior to the TF